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Other Views:
Dr. Hovind vs. Dr. Meyers Debate

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Dr. Stephen C. Meyers debated Dr. Kent Hovind on February 23, 2002 from 2 to 4 PM. The debate was held at East Juniata High School, RR 2 Box 2411, McAlisterville, PA  17049 which is about one hour northwest of Harrisburg.

See the debate - The quality is low so the debate file would fit on the web site.

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Dr. Meyer's Presentation

Dr. Meyers started out with a brief testimony. No matter what view one had on Genesis, whether young-earth creationist or old earth creationist, our salvation is dependent on Christ, and not on our view of Genesis. 

Dr. Meyers gave an introduction to the different view points on creation. The young-earth creations can be divided into two main camps; those who believe in a geocentric view of the universe, and those who believe in a heliocentric view. These groups are subdivided as follows:

Young-earth Creationists

Geocentric View: Earth at center of the universe. 

A. Flat Earth: Ancient or Biblical Times. 

B. Spherical Earth: Middle Ages, Ptolemaic System. 

Heliocentric View: Earth spins around the sun.

6,000 year old earth: No Gaps in the Genealogies of Genesis: Kent Hovind & Ken Ham.

10,000+ year old earth: Gaps in the Genealogies of Genesis: Henry Morris.

Heliocentric view came into prominence with Copernicus and Galileo. The Roman Catholic Church rejected the heliocentric view as anti-scriptural. The Great Reformer Martin Luther rejected the heliocentric view as anti-scriptural. John Calvin believed the geocentric view. 

Old-earth Creationists

Progressive Creationism: Hugh Ross from Reasons to Believe at www.reasons.org

New Creationism: ID or Intelligent Design Movement, Discovery Institute, ARN - Access Research Network.

Theist Evolution: Kenneth Miller, Finding Darwin's God.

Dr. Meyers then told about Ken Ham's web page:

ANSWERS IN GENESIS, KEN HAM "Arguments we think creationists should NOT use"

1. Darwin’s Deathbed conversion is False.
2. Moon Dust shows young universe is False.
3. Earth’s axis was vertical before the flood is False.
4. Flash-Frozen Mammoths is False.
5. Plesiosaur Netted in 1977 is False.
6. 2nd Law of Thermodynamics began at the Fall is False.
7. Paluxy Tracks Proved Human-Dinosaur coexistence is False.
8. Mutations are never Beneficial is False.
9. No New Species have ever been produced is False.

Dr. Hovind uses many of these arguments and Dr. Meyers suggested a debate between Ken Ham and Kent Hovind.

The key point Dr. Meyers made was that the Bible was not a science book. All the above views are wrong because they try to pour their modern views back into Genesis which the ancient Hebrews would never have understood. II Timothy 3:16 says that scripture was inspired for "instruction in righteousness" not instruction in science. Therefore Genesis is a theological treatise not a scientific statement.

Dr. Meyers concluded with what Galileo said: “The Bible tells us how to go to Heaven, not how the heavens go.”

Dr. Hovind’s Presentation

Hovind started off by stating that he has been a science teacher for 15 years. He agreed that the Bible was not a science book, but the Bible was scientifically accurate. 

He claimed that Dr. Meyers had been sucked into believing the Paluxy Tracks are false because of Glenn Kuban who is not an expert, but a computer programmer. 

He claimed that Exodus 20:11 proves that everything was made in 6 days because this was written by the very finger of God ( Exodus 31:18; Does God have just one hand and one finger on it?). 

Hovind states, “You (Dr. Meyers) have set yourself up as a cult leader” because no one can understand the Bible except you because I knew Hebrew and Greek. When some says, “this is what the Hebrew says” shows that “you’re dumb, and he’s smart.” This sets off all kinds of red flags. Hovind says the Bible is written for the common people to understand. There is no need to go to the Hebrew or Greek.

Dr. Hovind claimed there are no beneficial mutations. Seedless oranges and sickle cell are not examples of beneficial mutations. 

Dr. Hovind disagrees with Ken Ham. Ron Wyatt, and Carl Baugh, but keeps the good and spits out the bones. He admitted that AIG (Answers in Genesis) does not recommend him. 

As far as the genealogies in the Bible, Hovind stated there are three missing names, and has not found the answer for this, but there must be a good reason. 

Concerning the speed of light, Hovind still thinks light is slowing down because they use an atomic clock to measure light. He claims that with the atomic clock you will never see any decay of light because you are using “light to measure light.” 

Hovind then claimed plate tectonics is wrong. To fit the continents together one must shrink Africa by 35 to 40%. Mexico and Central America are gone. If we take all the water out of the oceans, there is land connecting the continents. The continents are still connected today. There are no magnetic reversals. There is just stronger and weaker magnetism caused by the fountains of the deep braking up during Noah’s flood. 

To Hovind it does not matter if Ken ham, Henry Morris, or you (Dr. Meyers) disagree with him. “I do not care what anyone thinks except Jesus” declares Hovind. He said that Hugh Ross is a nice man, but a heretic. He does not want to get creation into the schools, but wants to get all the lies out of the public schools like gill slits. He says that he debated Kenneth Miller one time on the radio, and that he refuses to debate him again. Miller said that he would take the part about gill slits out of his book, but has not done so. Hovind claimed there is no evidence for evolution. Fossils can not prove any evolution. Everything produces after its kind (Can you define “Kind?”). 

Hovind sells Michael Behe’s book “Darwin’s Black Box,” but Behe needs to come to his seminar and get converted. Hovind said that he talked to Jonathan Wells who said that he studied with the moonies, but was not a moonie, his wife was a moonie. 

Hovind concluded that Dr. Meyers was setting himself up as a “guru.” The average person can understand the Bible without going to the Hebrew or Greek. 

Rebuttal by Dr. Meyers 

Dr. Meyers returned the favor and stated that Hovind was setting himself up as a cult leader because he does not care about what anyone else thinks. 

Meyers told how Dr. Arlton Murray the president of the Institute for Biblical and Scientific Studies had went to the Paluxy River to help Carl Baugh. Dr. Murray made a mould of a supposed human track. Dr. Murray took the mould to an expert podiatrist in Texas who said that anatomically this was not a human footprint. The other arguments were what Ken Ham said, and should be taken up with him. 

Meyers then told about working on his Master’s degree trying to find scientific statements in the Bible. He could not find any scientific statements. They were all common phrases used in the Ancient Near East. The rest of the time he gave examples of this. 

1. “Circle of the Earth” (Isaiah 40:22). The common view of the earth in ancient times was that it was a flat circular disc as seen in drawings from Babylon to Egypt. The sky above was a solid dome (Job 37:18). The Hebrew chug means circle or vault, not a sphere. The Bible also mentions the “circle of the sea” (Job 26:10) that surrounded the circular earth, and the “circle of the heavens” (Job 22:14). 
   
   
   Drawing of the Babylonian Map of the World (500+BC)
   
   

2. “He hangeth the earth upon nothing” (Job 26:7) means that God stretched the earth out over the watery abyss of Genesis 1:2. See Psalms 136:6. (The earth is spread out over the watery deep like in Enuma Elish; Heidel 1942, 43).

3. “Pillars of the earth” (I Samuel 2:8, 14:5) If the earth was hanging on nothing, why does the Bible say the earth has pillars holding it up. The mountains were seen as pillars that held up the earth and sky.

4. “Pillar of heaven” (Job 26:11).The heavens were held up by the mountains that were seen as pillars.

5. “[The earth] is turned as clay to the seal” (Job 38:14). The earth is seen here as a(usually flat, circular) piece of clay that is being stamped with a seal
   
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6. “The life of the flesh is in the blood” (Leviticus 17:11). This concept of life (or soul) being in the blood is a very old concept common to the Ancient Near East.
7. “Paths of the Seas” (Psalm 8:8) Homer tells of“the paths of the sea water” in The Odyssey (Book 3:71).
   
   Bible Biology Below
   
   

8. “For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he” (Proverbs 23:7). Do our hearts actually think? In ancient times the heart was seen as the seat of our mind, emotions, and will, not the brain.

9. “Bowels of compassion” (I John 3:17) Are emotions in our bowels?

10. The kidneys (reins in the KJV) are seen as the seat of emotions and moral character (Psalms 73:21, Proverbs 23:16). 

11. Unicorns are mentioned 9 times in the KJV (King James Version; Numbers 23:22; 24:8; Deuteronomy 33:17; Job 39:9,10; Psalm 22:21; 29:6; 92:10; Isaiah 34:7). Do unicorns really exist? The Hebrew means, “wild ox.” (There was a preacher I knew who believed in unicorns because the KJV said so. I also read that the King James Version was written in English by the Apostle James who was a king before meeting Jesus.). 

12. “and satyrs shall dance there” (Isaiah 13:21, KJV). A satyr is a half man, half goat. Are satyrs real? According to the KJV they are!

13. Is the Sermon on the Mount a scientific treatise or spiritual truths? Should not have Jesus corrected their false views of the universe. Should not Jesus have told them the earth is a spinning sphere orbiting the sun?

14. “dust thou shalt eat” (Genesis 3:14) Do snakes really eat dust? Is this a scientific statement about snakes? 

15. “hast thou eaten of the tree” (Genesis 3:17). Did Adam eat the bark of the tree, or the fruit of the tree? Jewish Rabbis debated this (Genesis Rabbath).

16. “Let there be light” (Genesis 1:3). In ancient times the “light” of day was not caused by the sun since daylight started at dawn when the sun was not even up. This is seen in Ecclesiates 12:2 and Isaiah 30:26. Daylight was known for its “brightness” while the sun is known for its “heat.” 

17. Anthropomorphisms in Genesis One. “God said,” God called,” and “God Saw.” Does God have vocal cords, mouth, lips, and eyes? Dr. Bruce Walke states, “The time of creation is presented in the anthropomorphic language of days so that humankind might mime the Creator” (Genesis, 2001, p.77). 

Genesis is a polemic against heathen gods. It is also etiological in explaining the origin of the Sabbath. It is not a scientific treatise. Below the differences between Genesis One and science. 

Genesis	Science
Theological	Technological
Polemical	Experimental
Prescriptive	Descriptive
Metaphorical	Theoretical
Symmetrical	Chronological
Spiritual	Empirical

Dr. Meyers urged the audience to study these things out for themselves. 

Rebuttal by Dr. Hovind

In Job 38:14 Hovind claims that the earth is like a cylinder seal that is turning around on the clay to form an image (This is wrong. The earth is likened to the clay not the seal). 

Hovind sees the “pillars of the earth” as the rocks that go deep down into the earth. He then told about his hydroplate theory of huge underground reservoirs of water that flooded the earth in Noah’s time. 

Conclusions by Dr. Meyers

Dr. Meyers explained why Noah’s flood was local and not universal. When Luke 2:1 says that the whole world was taxed, it is not talking about the whole world as we know it which includes North America, South America, Australia, and Antarctica. In Luke 2 "world" means only the Roman Empire around the Mediterranean Sea. There are many places in scripture where "all the earth" does not mean the whole globe as we know it.

Reasons why Noah’s flood was local:

1. Same geological features before and after the flood (Tigris & Euphrates Rivers).

2. Pre-flood cities are post-flood cities.

3. No wild animals are mentioned boarding the Ark.

4. All the known world was just the Mesopotamian Valley.

5. Flood Survivors; Nephilim “giants” Gen.6:4, & Num. 13:33

6. No geological evidence of a world-wide flood, 2,400 BC.

7. Not enough water to flood the earth.

8. Local flood around 2900 BC in Mesopotamian Valley.

9. Similar Sumerian and Babylonian flood stories were local.

10. Noah’s Ark is not on Mt. Ararat. (The ancients probably interpreted the boat shaped geological features in the Ararat mountains as Noah’s Ark).

Conclusions by Dr. Hovind 

Dr. Hovind stated that the Bible clearly teaches that Noah’s flood was universal. (Psalm 104 talks about creation, not the flood).

Questions from the Audience

Does “bring forth” mean “evolve forth” in Genesis? NO! ( In the Ancient Near East plants, animals, and man were said to spring forth from the earth; Richard Clifford, 1994. Creation Accounts in the Ancient Near East and in the Bible.)

What do I believe? Dr. Meyers said he believes in the Big Bang! A gasp went up from the audience. Dr. Hovind said the red shift in the stars was the only false proof of the Big Bang. I told him there were other evidence like cosmic background radiation, depletion of hydrogen and abundance of helium, which he ignored. I interrupted him on his sermon on the red shift to say that you can see a spiral galaxy spinning around with a blue and red shift. The red shift means the stars are going away form us, and the blue shift means they are coming toward us showing that the galaxy is spinning around. I told him the Bible says that God stretched out the heavens, and asked if he believe this. He responded, “yes” which is what the Big Bang is all about, the heavens being stretched out. The moderator stopped me because I kept interrupting Hovind’s power point sermonets.

Get the debate on CD!

I recorded the first hour of the debate until the tape ran out of space. The quality is poor, but you can still hear and see what is happening. I have added the rest of my rebuttal and conclusions to the CD. You need Windows Media Player 7.0 or higher on your Computer to see it. 

The CD Contains:

• The first hour of the Hovind-Meyers Debate.
• Rebuttal and conclusions (Noah's Flood)
• Dangerous Doctrines of Hovind
• Dinosaurs in the Bible???
• The King James Version
• Genesis One
• Power Point slides of the Debate (need Power Point program on your computer)
• Word documents about: Genesis One, How old is the Earth?  Is the Bible scientific, and the problems with  KJV.

The Cost is $15 which includes shipping and handling. Order by Phone with a credit card, Visa, MasterCard, or Discover Card. Usually shipped out within 24 hours. Call 215-423-7374, or please send check or money order to:

• IBSS (Institute for Biblical & Scientific Studies)
• 2424 East Hagert Street
• Philadelphia, PA 19125

Make check payable to "IBSS" or write out Institute for Biblical & Scientific Studies. Allow at least a week for delivery.

Audio only CD of the first hour of the debate is available for $10 which includes shipping and handling. Should play in most CD players and DVD players. 

SPECIAL SALE: For $20 get both the Video and Audio CDs. This includes the shipping and handling. 

After the Debate

Kent Hovind elevated me to the status of "Cult Leader" at the debate in PA. When I mentioned that I believed in the Big Bang, a gasp went up from the audience. The debate went as well as could be expected for a fundamentalist crowd.

Three teenage boys came up afterward, and one said that he did not need to go to college, or learn Hebrew and Greek because he had his King James Version. I replied, "Do you think unicorns exist?" (Unicorns and satyrs and mentioned in the KJV). He was taken back by this. Kent Hovind also had no reply to this in the debate. I was very surprised by their attitude that education is not something you should pursue. Knowing Hebrew and Greek put me on the level of a "Cult Leader."

I had a reporter call me about the debate who thought I was ignorant of science because clearly Dr. Hovind knew more because he had taught science for 15 years. I challenged what kind of science Hovind was teaching and his credentials.

The article below is from The Sentinel in Lewistown, PA Saturday-Sunday, March 2-3, 2002, C1.

No bones about it - Creation science seminar at EJHS raises several issues.

By STACIE MORGAN
Sentinel reporter

COCOLAMUS ‹ The subject has been a bone of contention since bones were first found.  How did the bone get there?  How old is it?  What kind of bone is it? 

As long as bones are in question, what about the earth?  When did the earth first come into existence?  How, who or what formed the earth? The plants, animals, stars, sun, the oceans, dinosaurs and of course man, are all included in the issue of origins.

Some may say those questions were answered recently at a debate at East Juniata High School.  Still others who attended the debate between Ken Hovind, founder of Creation Science Evangelism in, and Stephen Myers, vice president of the Institute for Biblical and Scientific Studies, may yet be scratching their heads wondering if the age-old theories of evolution and creationism were proven one way or the other.

Myers, who called himself "a Christian who believes God used evolution" to create all living matter, attempted to prove during the debate that "the Bible is not meant to be a science book," but is simply a book that is "profitable for training in righteousness," and is poetic in its essence.

Myers used II Timothy 3:16, a verse from the Bible, to back up his statement.  Additionally, Myers argued, "You cannot find scientific truths from a spiritual book."

Hovind, also a self-proclaimed Christian, who believed the Bible to be without mistakes, and one to be taken literally, agreed with Myers when he acknowledged the Bible verse Myers referred to as verifying the holy book to be beneficial in teaching spiritual ideas.  However, while he also concurred that the Bible was not a book of science it was, "in fact, right and true when it spoke on scientific issues."

Is it possible to be a professing Christian, place confidence in the Bible as the word of God, yet believe in the theory of evolution?  According to Myers, who has a doctorate in theology, it is very possible.  "There are a lot of misconceptions taught from the Bible about how the world came into being.  I think it's wrong to try to draw out scientific data about the creation of the universe from Genesis 1," he said.

Although the debate did get scientifically technical in some areas, Myers stated that his main purpose in participating in the debate "was not to support or refute science but the using of the Bible to support scientific ideas." Additionally he said, "The Bible is a book of common sense poetical expressions and is not meant to contain hidden scientific truths. Everything it says cannot be taken literally because it is not a scientific treatise."  He used the example of Jesus teaching spiritual truths to people in the form of parables, "If Jesus can teach things through stories that did not really happen, should we take the Bible literally?  He expected us to be able to put one and one together."

Hovind, a teacher of science for 15 years, posed a question to Myers in response to his argument, a question that received applause and shouted "amens" from the audience.  "If you can¹t believe the first part of the Bible, the beginnings, than what parts can you believe?  How are we, as Christians supposed to know which parts to believe and which parts are 'misconceptions?'"

Although Myers repeatedly pointed out that scientific ideas could not be found in the Bible, he was quick to use Bible verses to support his ideas in evolution, specifically pointing out verses from Genesis 1 such as verses 20 and 24 which use the words "Let the waters bring forth" and "Let the earth bring forth," while refuting other verses in the same chapter (verses 21, 25 and 26) that all begin with "And God made" or "And God created," or "Let us make."

While Myers had a purpose in participating in the debate, so too did Hovind, "I don't really care if they teach evolution in the schools, and of course I'd like creationism taught alongside it, but textbooks today are just loaded with supposed evolutionary support, when in fact, those things have since been proven to be wrong."  He spoke emphatically, "Children should not be taught lies.  They should take the lies out of the textbooks." He gave an illustration, "If you had a math book that said two plus two equals five, you certainly wouldn¹t want that to remain in the book and be taught to  your children."

Though Hovind and Myers disagreed about the majority of topics that were brought up, such as the speed of light changing, plate tectonics, the age of the earth and whether or not man existed during the time of the dinosaurs, they did agree on one thing, that people should be encouraged to look at both theories, creationism and evolution, and make up their own minds. "Look at all sides," said Hovind.  "Scrutinize what you believe and what you teach," said Myers.

While Myers' last bit of advice for searchers of the truth about origins was, "Stick to the Bible for inspiration, not science.," Hovind's words were, "Evolution, like creationism, is a system of belief.  When you believe in something, it usually can't be scientifically proven or observed  or recreated in a laboratory.  And since none of us were alive to witness the beginning, and none of it has been proven as undoubtedly true, or recreated, it's safe to  say that both are purely beliefs."

To find out more about the beliefs of Myers and Hovind, visit these Web sites: The Institute for Biblical & Scientific Studies - www.bibleandscience.com ; and Creation Science Evangelism - www.drdino.com.

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This article is used by permission from The Sentinel in Lewistown, PA. It was in the Saturday-Sunday, March 2-3, 2002 edition on C1. Any other display or distribution of the piece is prohibited. Their web site is at www.lewistownsentinel.com

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Kent Hovind Newsletter 3/1/02

Creation Science Evangelism and Dinosaur Adventure Land needs your help!

As you may or may not know, the building inspectors from Escambia County (led by Mr. Donald Mayo) have been trying for nearly two years to shut down our "building 5" science center and museum. I have been arrested twice and have been to court many times over this issue. Our ministry exists to win souls and teach others about the glorious creation. Those who know us can testify to this. Since my conversion to Christ 33 years ago, I have tried (most of the time) to obey the commands of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ by bringing His word to others. The costs (approaching $100,000) of this legal battle have been staggering to our small ministry. Up until now, I have not asked for help. God has always supplied for us, but I feel it is now time to let others know what is going on. Please read my summary of what has happened and ask God if He would have you do one or more of the following:

1. Pray for us.
2. Write, fax, call or email Donald Mayo. He has always had the power to stop the county's proceedings against us at any time. Don Mayo (850) 595-3487, 3300 N. Pace Blvd. Pensacola, FL 32505, don_mayo@co.escambia.fl.us
3. Write, fax, call or email commissioner Willie Junior. He voted to begin legal proceedings against us. (850) 595-4930 (w) or (850) 433-1002 (h), 3300 N. Pace Blvd. Pensacola, FL 32505 district3@co.escambia.fl.us
4. Write to Governor Bush. Fl_governor@myflorida.com, (850) 488-4441. He has followed our case carefully, seems to be sympathetic and has the authority to stop this at any time, and the county will be forced to leave us alone. Why he has not done so, we cannot understand.
5. Financially support our ministry. We are now nearly two years behind where we could be in the growth of this ministry. Four major building projects to improve and expand our outreach to the thousands who come here have been delayed due to the tremendous cost of our battle with the county.

Short summary of events in the battle between our ministry and the county:

On March 29, 2000 I, Kent E Hovind, was peacefully obeying the command of my Lord Jesus Christ, the Creator and Owner of the earth, by conducting the various aspects of our ministry when Escambia County building inspector Rene Pelotte and an assistant came onto our church property, in their official capacity, without invitation and in direct violation of our clearly posted "notice."

Rene and her assistant entered one of our buildings and proceeded to ask questions about whether we had acquired Escambia County's permission to build the science building on the property. One of our 30 staff members called me out to the building where I met with the inspectors. I told them we have nothing to hide and are doing nothing illegal or unsafe, but they were not to return in an official capacity unless they could prove they had jurisdiction over our church. I then gave Rene a copy of the posted notice, which explains the laws, and told her that we were a church ministry and that she had no jurisdiction on church property. When she indicated she disagreed, I told her that she would have to leave immediately unless she could prove she had jurisdiction. I explained to her that the Bible said Jesus was the head of the church and civil government had no authority. The first amendment to the Constitution of the United States and the Florida statutes are very clear on this matter also, as well as the Religious Freedoms Restoration Act.

I also told her that there was a long history of government rulers attempting to regulate the church of Jesus Christ and that since most churches in the last 100 years have become corporations of the state, (which does indeed grant jurisdiction) I could see why she may not understand how the county's regulations did not apply to a true, unregistered, unincorporated church.

I told both Rene and her partner that they were welcome to come anytime in their private capacity and we would gladly give them a tour and let any inspectors look at any work we do and even offer advice. We would value their expert opinion and experience. We have nothing to hide and are doing nothing illegal or unsafe. I further told them that they were talking to the wrong person in that Pastor Mooneyhan was the one they needed to talk with if they had any questions concerning this property.

A few days later Rene came back in spite of our clearly posted notice to issue a $50 citation to me. I told her I could not sign it since 1) she had no jurisdiction and 2) I was not the pastor. I also told her that she must leave unless she could prove jurisdiction. She said I must contact their office within 72 hrs. We sent a letter and called them within 72 hrs requesting a hearing on this matter, but our requests were ignored. The next thing I heard about the matter was the call from the Sheriff telling me that a warrant had been issued by Judge Patricia Kinsey for my arrest!I never did see a copy of the warrant, even though I asked for it several times. I went down to the jail and was booked like a criminal, posted bail, and went home the same day.

I have met with the county officials several times to try to resolve this conflict. I told them, "The question at issue is a simple one: Does the Escambia County, Florida civil government have jurisdiction over a Church of the Sovereign God of the universe?" We are not the aggressors in this case. We were simply trying to serve the Lord and the county stuck its nose where it has no business. (Churches that are 501c3 corporations cannot get out of the permitting process.)

Disney gets no permits and allows no county or state inspections. In 1967, the Florida Legislature granted Disney autonomy through Chapter 67-764 Laws of Florida. This information is also available in Chapter 163.167 Florida Statutes, and in particular, subsection 9, which grants Reedy Creek (i.e. Disney) the same powers and duties as any other Florida county or municipality. See www.state.fl.us/rcid/. The Amish never get permits or inspections of their buildings in any state, including Florida. They have a long history of maintaining their sovereign status, as do the Anabaptists. It seems like this same battle needs to be fought every generation so Caesar can be reminded where his power stops.

We are not asking for an "exemption." This would imply the state has jurisdiction. We are simply asking them to admit they have no jurisdiction over the Lord's church. As a church of the Lord Jesus Christ, we answer to a much higher authority than Escambia County. We are not lawless. We believe everyone, including the government, should obey the laws of the land unless they are in violation of God's Laws. Our buildings are safe. At our expense we hired a state licensed electrician to inspect our electrical system to insure it was safe and would meet or surpass the county's electrical codes. We think the state's electrical codes are an excellent standard to insure safety and we read and follow them. We also had two certified engineers inspect our building. They stated in writing that the building is safe. If the inspectors were truly concerned about safety, they would have accepted our invitation (extended five times) to come in their private capacity and look at our work. It is obvious that safety is not the issue. The real issue is one of the state controlling the Lord's church.

For nearly 2000 years, it has been the conviction of Christians that Jesus is the head of the church and the state has no jurisdiction over the Lord's church. Millions of Christians in the early centuries died rather than submit the Lord's church to Caesar. See Foxes Book of Martyrs! It has only been in the last 100 years or so that many have bowed the knee to make Caesar the head of their church. See: www.hushmoney.org or order the book, In Caesar's Grip ($15) from CSE for more. The Amish object to (and never obtain) building permits for similar religious reasons and Disneyworld in Florida never gets county permits. We are a peace loving people who simply wish to serve the Lord. We cannot ask a lower authority like the civil government for permission to do what God has called us to do. If we did, how could we object later if Caesar asked to approve our teachings or make us hire people who violate clear scriptures? Our buildings are safe and built up to or beyond the code.

We are not looking to do anything illegal. Ever since 1999, when this property was given to the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ, we have not knowingly submitted God's church to any lesser authority. Our decision to build without permits from the county was based on our understanding of the Bible and, to a lesser degree, the constitutions of the united States and the State of Florida.

The history of government trying to regulate people peacefully trying to obey God's commands is a long and bloody one. Pharaoh tried to tell Moses how, when and where he could obey God in Exodus 8:28 "And Pharaoh said, I will let you go, that ye may sacrifice to the LORD your God in the wilderness; only ye shall not go very far away" (attempting to regulate): "entreat for me." Ex. 10:11 "Not so: go now ye that are men," (attempting to regulate) "and serve the LORD; for that ye did desire." Ex. 10:24 "And Pharaoh called unto Moses, and said, Go ye, serve the LORD; only let your flocks and your herds be stayed:" (attempting to regulate) "let your little ones also go with you." After much frustration to Moses and great cost to himself and his domain, in Ex. 12:31 Pharaoh finally got the message and let them go. Then he changed his mind again! (slow learner!)

Ever since Jesus established His church the civil magistrates have resented not having authority. The followers of Jesus have been persecuted, tortured, and burned by the civil magistrates to attempt to make them surrender the authority of the church to Caesar.

The disciples of the Lord Jesus Christ were constantly harassed by government officials who tried to regulate their lives as they obeyed the Lord. From Acts 4 through 28, all but 3 chapters record examples of this. We see from Acts 16 how we are to handle ourselves when this happens. In verse 19 the leaders saw they would lose money (just as county officials see permits as a source of income), so Paul and Silas were beaten and imprisoned. In verse 37, we see that Paul and Silas demanded a public apology from the rulers and magistrates for their illegal actions. We have filed our own suit against the county to force them to admit they have no jurisdiction, leave us alone, pay for the damages they have caused our ministry and apologize for their treatment of God's servants.

Even though most other "churches" in the county and Pensacola Christian College see nothing wrong with bowing to Caesar and asking permission of the heathen to obey God's commands we cannot and will not. Just as there are two types of churches in Russia (the state regulated church and the free church), so it is in America.

The record will show that the property at 29 Cummings Road has been built on several times in the past and the proper permits and inspections were obtained while the property was not owned by Faith Baptist Fellowship. In 1999, the entire property was given to Faith Baptist Fellowship, which is not a creation or corporation of the state of Florida or any other state. Since that time, this ministry has never asked for any permits from the state or county.

If it is the money they want for the permit fees, we are willing to give that if needed. If it is control they want, we are not permitted by our Lord to grant this.

I do not wish to be in a legal battle. I only wish to serve my Lord Jesus Christ and preserve my rights, and those of our church, as our Anabaptist forefathers fought and died to preserve for us. Some have said, "Wouldn't it be easier just to pay the $50 permit?" Ask that question to the three Hebrew children who wouldn't bow to the Babylonian idol. Read your Bible and see how much was written from jail for reasons like this. Control is the issue.

We praise God for sending us Maury Adkins to help us in the bewildering world of legalese. Please pray for him, as his health situation is not good. An old injury to his stomach in a car accident years ago has now become a cancerous hernia requiring special surgery in the next few weeks.

When 7000 of the best and brightest young men were taken captive into Babylon in Daniel's day, only three refused to bow a short time later. See Daniel 3:12. I'm sure the 6997 had good excuses for why they disobeyed the first of God's ten commandments they had been brought up with and I'm sure they thought the three not kissing the dirt that day made a bad choice, but we only know the names of those three today. They were right and the 6997 were wrong! My job is to study God's Word, try to obey it and leave the results up to God. Just as Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego did not know what would happen when they were thrown into the furnace, we do not know the outcome of our stand. Please pray that God will turn the hearts of those involved. Governor Bush is very involved in our case and may rule in our favor.

We have already spent a small fortune defending ourselves in this costly legal battle. We have no intention of ever giving in. We are convinced that we are on the side of both the Lord and the law. Brethren, pray for us. What the king does or threatens to do I cannot control. I only know I cannot bow and I pray I will not burn! The battle has been costly and we would welcome any support from those who love the Lord's work and freedom.

Please help us by praying for us and writing or calling the three men who can turn this around for us: Don Mayo (850) 595-3487 don_mayo@co.escambia.fl.us, Willie Junior (850) 595-4930 district3@co.esacmbia.fl.us, or Governor Bush (850) 488-4441 fl_governor@myflorida.com.

Kent Hovind

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Separation of Church and State

We should render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's as Jesus has commanded us (Mark 12:17).  This means paying our taxes which Hovind has not done in years. This means getting building permits and inspections as required by law. The church is responsible for the spiritual things while the state is responsible for the physical things of this world. Should a church file a deed to their property in City Hall? Should a church bus be required to have a license plate and registration with the state? Should the church pay sales tax on anything? Should the church give out W-2 forms for those who work at the church?

Romans 13:1-7 makes it very clear that the government is the minister of God that must be obeyed. "They that resist shall receive to themselves damnation" (verse 2). Hovind is directly violating God's command, and is now reaping what he has sow. 

Stephen C. Meyers

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Temple University Debate

Hovind vs. Weisenberg Debate
November 12, 2002 at Temple University, Philadelphia, PA

Hovind's Opening Remarks

Kent Hovind claimed to be a science teacher for 15 years, yet he has no degree in science. I wondered if he was even allowed to travel here since there is a felony charge against him in Florida. My comments are put in parentheses. 

Hovind started by listing six different kinds of evolution:

1. Cosmic Evolution: The Big Bang 18-20 Billion years ago (Hovind is out of date here, scientist place the Big Bang about 15 Billion years ago).

2. Chemical Evolution: The production of heavy elements. 

3. Stellar & Planetary Evolution: 

4. Organic Evolution: Life from non-life.

5. Macro-evolution: The change of one kind into another kind (please define "kind")

6. Micro-evolution: Variations of Kinds which Hovind admits happens. 

Hovind objected to "using my tax dollars to pay for textbooks that teach lies." (Hovind should not worry about this since he does not pay taxes, nor believes one should pay taxes. He should be worried about the lies that he is teaching.)

Two False assumptions of Evolution:

1. Mutations make better life. No positive mutations.

2. Natural Selection can create. No, it selects. No increase in genetic information. (Please explain junk DNA!)

Hovind said that there were limits on variations, that bacteria may grow to resist drugs, but not a hammer. (Who said they would?). Corn would not grow into a hamster. 

Hovind told of the Peppered Moth Lie and of Haeckels embryo gill drawings exposed by Jonathan Wells in Icons of Evolution. For a detailed rebuttal of this book see http://www.ncseweb.org/icons 

Hovind proclaimed that whales can not walk on their pelvis bone and that there are no vestigial organs. Hovind said that the tail bone is not vestigial. It has 9 muscles attached to it. He would pay for the operation to have your tail bone removed.  

Hovind said that we do not know if Lucy had any children, but if you look for marks on the pelvis you can tell if she had children. 

Weisenberg's Opening Remarks

Dr. Weisenberg referred to the article in Scientific American "15 answers to Creationists" 

According to Weisenberg, evolution does not need defending. Most scientists believe in evolution and base their research on it.

Weisenberg proclaimed that creationists don't understand science and don't do science. Can we prove that George Washington existed?

Weisenberg offered a $250,000 challenge to Hovind. Hovind then raised his offer to one million dollars. 

$250,000 Offer to Creationists:

1. Describe the physical mechanism for change.

2. Come up with a computer model of creation.

3. Explain why the vitamin C gene is missing only in man and monkey.

4. Give the scientific method for finding the correct religion.

5. Explain unique species on islands.

6. Why don't the laws of Thermodynamics work?

Weisenberg stated "Bad science leads to bad theology." He then read in the Book of Revelation about the 7th seal. 

Instead of all or nothing, reject evolution or reject your faith, Weisenberg offered a peace offering: science and religion are two different domains. 

Hovind's Rebuttal

Hovind stated that the majority opinion is not always right. The most current research is not always right. It must stand the test of time. He mentioned the Piltdown man and Nebraska man frauds. (It was scientists that discovered these were frauds).

False theories die hard like the geocentric view of the universe. Ken Miller is mentioned about having gill slits in his book. See Kenneth Miller's response at Paying the Price.

Hovind claimed that his testable hypothesis of creation was symbiotic relationships like the bee and flowers. See http://www.nytimes.com/2002/10/15/science/life/15TERM.html 

Hovind claimed the geologic column is someone's imagination. Polystrate trees prove this. (There are at least 26 different place on earth where the whole geologic column can be found. See "Polystrate" Tree Fossils. and The Geologic Column and its Implications for the Flood.

Weisenberg's Rebuttal

He stated that in the coral beds of NY there are no traces of human remains. The cells of a banana and dog look the same.

Hovind's Conclusion

Hovind attacked carbon 14 dating as inaccurate. A living mollusk was dated 2,300 years old.

(Carbon 14 dating is very accurate when used properly. The mussel gets it carbon from the limestone in the water and sediments which are low in carbon 14 while a tree gets fresh carbon from the atmosphere. Therefore the mussel will show an artificially older date (Berra 1990, 131). Calibrated 14C methods have confirmed Egyptian records, and most Aegean dates which were cross dated with Egyptian dates (American Scientist May/June 1982). Contamination in the 14C samples will only give younger dates (Dave Matson's web page).

Hovind concluded, "If you want to go to hell that's your business."

Questions from the Audience

Hovind stated "Design demands a designer." (One must define design. Crystals that naturally grow have design.)

There are no transitional forms. (SeeTransitional Vertebrate Fossils FAQ and 29+ Evidences for Macroevolution.

Radio Halos in granites show a young earth at www.halos.com. (see New radiohalo find challenges primordial granite claim by Robert Gentry and "Polonium Haloes" Refuted - A Review of "Radioactive Halos in a Radio-Chronological and Cosmological Perspective."

Weisenberg stated that creationists think they are instant experts. He challenged Hovind to dig down in the earth and find one out of place fossil.

Hovind responded by mentioning the Coso artifact and the Meister footprint. (The Coso artifact was a 1920s Champion spark plug. See The Coso Artifact - Mystery from the Depths of Time. These are mentioned by Cremo. See Hidden History, Hidden Agenda. There is a new interesting book entitled "The Antiquity of Man" by Michael Brass that covers this in detail.)

In 1968 William Meister found a trilobite near Antelope Springs, Utah. When he opened the slab he saw an oblong shape that he thought was a human sandal print. Glen Kuban states, "Upon closer inspection the overall shape is seen to consist of a small pattern in a concretion-like slab, similar to others in the area. There is no evidence that it was ever part of a striding sequence, nor evidence that it was ever on an exposed bedding plane" (See The "Meister Print": An Alleged Human Sandal Print from Utah and The "Meister Print."

Hovind claims that underwater cities that have been found shows that there was enough water form Noah's flood to cover the earth. (This is simply not true. There is not enough water to cover the whole earth. Water levels have risen causing some ancient coastal cities to be underwater now.)

Weisenberg stated that religion should stay in church and not in the classroom. Which Holy Book is the right one?

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My Closing Comments: Dr. Weisenberg did a terrible job in defending evolution. Hovind presented the same old arguments that most other creationists do not use. See "Arguments we think creationists should NOT use";  by Answers in Genesis

See also How Good Are Those Young-Earth Arguments? A Close Look at Dr. Hovind's List of Young-Earth Arguments and Other Claims by Dave E. Matson.

--by Stephen C. Meyers

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